THEY USED TO CALL IT A WHITE ELEPHANT (2005)

A transcript of an interview conducted with Robert Deacon (my father) regarding his childhood and teenage visits to the De La Warr Pavilion in Bexhill. His memories of luminaries such as Uncle Jack the Punch and Judy Man, The John Roye Orchestra and Adam Faith formed the basis of this father son collaborative performance: a personalised De La Warr Pavilion performance history and a son's interpretation of his father's recollections. This is an unedited version of what was shown as a twenty minute film as part of the 'Variety' season at the venue. The images shown serve to illustrate what I thought my father was talking about in the form of scenes from films such as Never Let Go (starring Adam Faith) and Tony Hancock's Punch and Judy Man.

ROBIN: So do you remember the first time you visited the De La Warr Pavillion? What do you remember about it?

ROBERT: The first time...not the specifically the first time...but around the time...I first remember going to the De La Warr when I was a very small child. I was probably about four I would think, maybe to pantomimes because when every Christmas...after Christmas, they used to have Pantomines, and I always used to go...a Jack in the Beanstalk...y'know all, Jack and the Beanstalk, and all those various, famous pantomimes they used to have. So that's the first time I remembered going. And those pantomimes were put on by...I think they were put on by the local repertory company called the Penguin Players. I think they were the same people who did the year's...professional theatre company that they used to have in lots of towns in those days, which you don't find much now. The Penguin Players were very, very popular. They used to be at the De La Warr Pavillion during the winter months and in the summer months they used to move out of the De La Warr Pavillion and go to a place called the...now what was it called? Edgerton Park Theatre it was an actual...a much less...a much more modest theatre in the Edgerton Park which has all been pulled down now, and I think its some other building on its place. But that's where they used to go in the summer, and the De La Warr Pavillion used to have a summer show, and they had quite a few different summer shows at the De La Warr Pavillion I can remember...I used to go there quite regularly to see them. Um, I'm just trying to think what they were...Starlight Rendezvous was quite a well known...

ROBERT: Starlight Rendezvous...and they used to have a variety of...they used to have comedians, singers, a man and a woman singer, and they may do light opera, popular songs...

ROBIN: What would have been like a popular song at the time?

ROBERT: That's a very good...I can remember one particular act. It's strange how you can remember something, just out of...you know, plucked out of all...you know, all those years ago. A popular song, I believe it was from the 1940' s this song, and I suppose, maybe this was maybe in the early 50's, I can remember this particular act in the summer show and one of the members of the show singing 'Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered', the song...and the particular woman was dressed up as a nightclub singer, and I remember her sort of almost...climbing up this velvet curtain while she was singing this thing, in a sort of vamp like way, dressed up in a very seductive, nightclub singers attire. 'Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered am I'...and it was, really...I can remember that.

ROBIN: How old were you?

ROBERT: I don't know, probably about six or seven or something, you know. But I mean, it was just one item, I think it was supposed to be funny, I would imagine...it was quite a comical thing. A spoof maybe, but I can just remember that.

ROBIN: And what was the guy doing...so the woman was climbing?

ROBERT: No, no...it was just a solo act. And one thing I used to really enjoy...they also used to have a multi instrumentalist...among all the different acts, they had a multi instrumentalist, and I used to find it so exciting, wondering what kind of instruments...and I suppose that was the beginning of my interest in musical instruments. They used to bring these instruments onto the stage, and lay them down, and I always remember, there was a soprano saxophone, and I didn't even know what it was...and it used to be lying there on the stage in the lights...and I used to think, what's that going to sound like when he comes to play it...it's waiting to be played. There was something very glamorous about these instruments...and he would come on and play a trumpet, then a saxophone, or something else...

ROBIN: So he'd have them all laid out on the stage.

ROBERT: Well sometimes they would be laid out, and sometimes he would bring them on...that was always quite an exciting...for me...quite an exciting part. And as I say, they had comedians, dancers, singers, all the types of...everything, a variety show...

ROBIN: And in terms of the comedians, were they kind of a bit blue?

ROBERT: Oh no...

ROBIN: Or is it wholesome?

ROBERT: I suppose what they would aim for would be to amuse the local audiences, so you would have references to things...locations around Bexhill...funny things about Sidley. 'Oh, I've been up to Sidley' walking about...you know, and...

ROBIN: And what was it about Sidley?

ROBERT:  'Oh, they're a bit posher over in Eastbourne aren't they' and all this sort of thing...

ROBIN: So south coast specific humour...

ROBERT: That's right. Local, Sidley was the kind of...is an area just outside Bexhill, its tacked on..and...Little Common. All those...and Cooden, that was a very posh area... (affects posh accent) 'oh, my goodness me, you need ten shilling to speak to anyone living in Cooden Beach don't you!' And then that would get a laugh, that sort of thing. 'Not like in Little Common then!' And that would be another area. That sort of thing...

ROBIN: Because I had this image of a sort of Northern Nightclub entertainer with a pint of beer in one hand...

ROBERT: Oh no, that's more club isn't it...it wasn't a sort of club atmosphere at all, and they certainly weren't blue...I don't think they'd have even considered, because Bexhill was a kind of...it wasn't that kind of place. I don't think that would have been appreciated.

ROBIN: Why not though?

ROBERT: Well, the audiences...it was very family orientated, the whole thing, you know. It was suitable for everybody.

ROBIN: And what about the dance stuff?

ROBERT: Sort of...I'm trying to think really...er...you know...I don't really know, I can't really remember much about it would be sort of...um...dances...they used to have dances...I really can't remember a lot about that...you must remember, we're talking over fifty years ago. I can't remember anything specific. Um.

ROBIN: And did you see this stuff in the main theatre space?

ROBERT: Yes. In the main theatre, and sometimes, they had different programmes...for instance, they would have four different shows that they would rotate, so you didn't have the same show...the same content in every show, otherwise, it would have been pretty boring once you'd seen it. You know, you'd say, oh, we've seen that one, and then there was another one, maybe in a four weeks time, a different show with a different content. And then they would have a third show, and a fourth show...so you could go, and they would sort of rotate, to keep it I suppose...from getting tedious &to the audience.

ROBIN: And would you remember the theatre space itself? What do you remember about the auditorium?

ROBERT: I would imagine it's much the same as it is now. Downstairs, you had wings of seats, and then upstairs, you hade the balcony, and that went right up to the back...and the ceiling was acoustically designed...it had concave...er... sections, all the way across, and underneath each concave section there was a light that sort of mirrored the shape. It was very 1930's, I suppose art deco...that lamps in there, when I remember...I think they've been taken away, but they were beautiful really, in the style of the 1930's. They were sort of like...how to describe it in shape...like the section of a cone, a very narrow section of a cone, and underneath these concave sections. Very comfortable seats...and er...

ROBIN: What else have you got on there?

ROBERT: I'm just looking. I think another one of the shows there was Sunshine...I believe...apart from Starlight Rendezvous, I believe they had Sunshine as well .And I was trying to think of a song they used to finish...this show with...and er...

ROBIN: What was it?

ROBERT: No I won't! (singing) 'Sunshine is saying goodnight at the end of the day. And when you're way you're wending and the time you're spending...Sunshine is saying goodnight' and then they'd all bow to the audience. And then of course I can remember the Penguin Players...which were the professional theatre company, and they were headed by Richard Burnett and Peggy Paige...who was his wife...they were the two main...I suppose they were the directors... maybe the owners of the company, if they were owned, I don't know. But they had all sorts of different people, they had Oliver Fisher, who was a fantastic actor...and um...I used to have long conversations with him later on, because he used to go to the same pub as I did when I was young. He was a very good actor...they had lots of different people there. There was an actress called Jenny Mundy Castle...Vilma Hollingbury...I'm just trying to think...somebody Pascoe...oh there was...a chap who'd become quite famous in films in later years...he was in that.

ROBIN: A film actor?

ROBERT: Not in big parts...but he was...he would always play a sort of small time villain.

ROBIN: I wonder who that would be?

As it turns out, he is talking about Ron Pember, seen here in The Sweeney pilot film.

ROBERT: Um...anyway, that was...they used to do plays every week, and often they were thrillers like Agatha Christie, they did lots of Agatha Christie plays, and they were very well done. All sorts of different plays like that. I used to go there regularly to see that.

ROBIN: What other plays?

ROBERT: Well...I can't think of anything specific...obviously, after such a long time, I can't think of anything...Agatha Christie, that kind of play...thrillers...'whodunnits' , that's what they used to call them didn't they? While all that was going on, they'd be other parts of the building. There was what they used to call the East Wing...they called this place the East Wing for many years, and they used to have dances on a Saturday Night, and they used to have a band called the John Roye Orchestra, and it was a real typical 1950's dance band with saxophones and brass...and I used to hear the sound, when I was a small child...I used to hear, when I used to go on Saturday night with my parents...to the theatre...and I used to go out during the interval and buy ice cream, out in the kind of foyer area, and you could hear this music drifting...and to me it would always appear tremendously glamorous...you could hear this music, and you could see these people dancing, and you could see the bar with all the mirrors, and I thought, that is forbidden territory, I'm just...I could never go in there. And you could smell, alcohol, perfume, cigarettes, all kind of drifting through...and it was such an adult world, and you could hear music, and it was utterly, the epitome of sophistication...I can never go in there, its. You know that...and I suppose I was about seven or eight. Or nine...and I used to think, how unreachable. What's going on in there? Its so...

ROBIN: So what year would that be?

ROBERT: That would be the early 50's. And when I was very small they used to have um...Punch and Judy up there.

ROBIN: Uncle Jack...tell me what you remember about Uncle Jack.

ROBERT: Yes, that was what he was called, his professional name obviously, and Punch and Judy

ROBIN: And that would just be on the main stage?

ROBERT: No, I believe they would have that in the East Wing...I believe they did. So it's...you know what Punch is like? You know the story of Punch and Judy? And then there's the Policeman...they're puppets...(high pitched voice) 'Oh Mr Punch, where's that horrible old Mr Punch? I'll soon sort him out! You naughty man! Mr Policeman! Yes madam!' And he'd come in with a truncheon. 'I want you to beat Punch because he's a very bad man! Yes Madam! Argghh!' And all the children used to...'hahahaha... yes, go on!' Audience participation. And outside...I think they probably still have outside dancing...they had square dancing. I don't even know what that...is that American? I think...sort of country...I don't know what it is really, I know they used to have that in the 50's...I think uncle Richard used to go to it and um...I never went to that. And it was a very busy place...there were all sorts of things going on there. And they had a restaurant downstairs...all the parts of it were used. It was in very good condition, and that's why I got so sad to see its gradual decline over recent years, when physically, it was crumbling...some of the concrete structure, you'd see bits had fallen off, and rust...the metal, the steel structure, would be rusty...and I thought this place is going from bad to worse...no wonder they need...I would imagine it would cost...I don't know how much it would cost to refurbish it...millions I would think to do it properly...you know, but I think it fell into an awful state in the last few years.

ROBIN: And why did they call it a white elephant?

ROBERT: I think they called it a white elephant sometimes because it was...I suppose...because it didn't make that much money...or it was such a huge...I suppose it must have cost and enormous amount to run...from all the services and everything. I suppose maybe it wasn't that profitable because a building like that may have been in the wrong place...because Bexhill, especially in those days was essentially a retirement place with a very high percentage of the people would have been of retirement age. And so therefore, it didn't have that sort of vibrant potential audience for anything other than the kind of things I'm taking about...the theatre...

ROBERT: They used to have pop concerts there I remember in the 1960's when I was a teenager...I remember they used to have Cliff Richard, Adam Faith and Marty Wilde those were three I went to...

ROBIN: Do remember anything about them as concerts?

ROBERT: Yes, I do actually. I went with somebody...I went with this girl, who when I...I was really amazed because you could hardly hear...most of what they were doing on stage was drowned out by argggh!

ROBERT: And this girl I was sitting with, I didn't understand why when she didn't scream...she had to bury her face, and scream into her hands. I thought, how strange, why don't you sit and listen? You know, and I think one of these girls...

ROBIN: Did you see her again?

ROBERT: Oh, it was somebody I knew at school. I think one of these girls, when Adam Faith was there...I can't be absolutely sure...but I believe one of these girls shouted out, 'I love you Adam!' On the stage, and he said, 'and I love you too baby...'

ROBIN: Like...'bay-bee?'

ROBERT: That's right because it was (singing) 'what do you want if you don' t want money? What do you want if you don't want love? What if you want if you don't want money? Guess you want my love, bay-bee!'

ROBERT: And I think he was using that sort of thing from his '...and I love you too bay-bee...' And of course they were screaming...and there was Marty Wilde, I remember he was there as well, so I remember those...

ROBIN: And what about the Cliff Richard concert?

ROBERT: Mmm, I can't remember a lot, about that, but I remember I went to see it. And they used to come bouncing on the stage, and it was all sort of obviously practised. You know, the epitome of vitality, and youthful...they'd come bouncing on with a microphone.

ROBIN: So was there a divide in how the space was used by the younger people of Bexhill, and in terms of the older...like you say, the retirement...

ROBERT: Not really, only in the dance...that I spoke about...they were sort of for anybody who was sort of...not teenagers, in those days it wasn't a teenage thing, they would all be in their twenties and thirties...I suppose...or forties. But teenage...it hadn't taken off...this teenage thing...when they had a pop concert, it was obviously just for them...it would be only one night, and then that was it. But it wasn't teenage orientated, nothing was in those days...teenagers were hardly...it was almost a sort of American phenomenon. What else can I tell you? On Sundays, they used to have um... very pleasant concerts...and I remember one of the orchestra leaders was Jack Salisbury and his orchestra. And they used to play light classical music...and they'd have soloists...they'd have guest singers...who would do light opera...excerpts from light opera...

ROBIN: Do you remember what sort of operas?

ROBERT: No not really...no I can't, but that's the style of things that they would do. Light orchestral things...I'm just trying to think of a composer that maybe used to play quite often...Jack Salisbury, who was a violinist...he was the leader of the orchestra...and he would introduce the items, and play with the orchestra.

ROBIN: And these orchestra's, were they based in Bexhill? Or were they travelling?

ROBERT: I don't know actually...because he would be there once a week...it was a professional thing...but he would be there every Sunday, but maybe he played at other times as well, or maybe played...I used to go on Sunday night...but maybe they played in the week, I think they did. They used to play outside...I think they used to play outside in the week for people sitting in deckchairs on the terrace outside. Yeah, I think they were there more or less as residents. But they used to do their indoor concerts at the weekends...I believe that is so now...now I'm talking about it, things come back as you speak.

ROBIN: I'm interested as well what in terms of...I mean again this is possibly...probably too long to remember...I'm interested if you have any recollections of what people looked like...when you've talked about Uncle Jack...the Punch and Judy man, I'm trying to get a visual idea...of...was he an old man, was he a young man?

ROBERT: Well, you see, when you're very young, anybody who may be in their thirties may appear old...so the perception changes as the age changes...I don't know...I suppose he would have been ageless to me really. He would be a...grown up...I mean, he could have been anything from thirty and sixty...I don't know, I can't even...dressed in black suit with a bow... you know the sort of thing...

ROBIN: And did he have a booth or...

ROBERT: They always had...it was kind of a platform...they were inside...it was like a tent...and he would be inside manipulating the puppets, and all you saw would be a striped tent kind of thing, with a roof. And then they'd be the little platform where the puppets would appear. Have you ever seen Punch and Judy?

ROBIN: I...

ROBERT: I don't think they'd have it now, it wouldn't be 'cool' enough would it? 'What is this rubbish?' You know. They wouldn't be interested in that...

ROBIN: I wanna go on my playstation...

ROBERT: 'It's boring! Rubbish!' and all that kind of thing, you know...we didn't know all those kinds of things...nothing was boring in those days...it wasn' t even known to me. Everything's boring. These kids at school...'boring! I'm so bored...'

ROBIN: You told me about one of the actresses I think it was...Jenny Mundy Castle...this woman who was always striding about...

ROBERT: Oh no, that was Vilma Hollingbery...

ROBIN: What was her...what was that recollection?

ROBERT: I used to see her walking around the town...I remember seeing her striding purposefully along Edgerton Road, towards the park theatre...in a suit, striding along, very purposefully. And she was very forthright...her parts were always very strong...the characters. But what happened to her, I don't know.

ROBIN: Do you wonder what happened to these people?

ROBERT: Yes you do. Of course you do.

ROBIN: After you left Bexhill, or after...you know, years later, have you heard things about?

ROBERT: No...because the Penguin Players...which it originally was...that theatre company in the 1950's...became 'Theatre South East'...it was the same people, but the name changed. I suppose probably in the 1960's it changed. To theatre South East...and Peggy Paige and Richard Burnett were stalwarts, and they were there for years and years and years, and they were excellent actors, and she was...they were really excellent actors...I can remember that you know. I don't know if they have the opportunity now for people who want to enter the theatre to be in a professional company like that...I don't suppose there are many about now. But it was a wonderful apprenticeship for anyone who wanted to enter the theatre and maybe just take bit parts to begin with and maybe take bigger parts, until they became...

ROBIN: And do you ever feel like you wanted to get involved?

ROBERT: No, in those days...I'd have been far to reticent...the idea of standing on a stage and doing a play would have made me...no...I couldn't have...

ROBIN: But then you said in terms of watching the guy with the instruments...that would have...

ROBERT: Oh yes, that was the summer show. That's a different thing, that's not...they were two...

ROBIN: Yeah, but...

ROBERT: Yes, I've always been interested in musical instruments, and found something glamorous about them, and exciting...the fact that a mute object made of wood or metal transformed into something that makes the most beautiful sound &something intangibly exciting...you know...yeah...well all excitement is intangible, that's not the right...indefinable. I used to look at instruments in shop windows sometimes, these second hand shops and I always remember this trumpet...I saw this trumpet in a case and thought, 'if only I could have that'...so glamorous, with the pearl keys, in a plush case...so exciting, I don't know what it was about it...I used to always look at instruments and...be thrilled by their appearance...

ROBIN: For some reason...I remember when I first talked about doing this thing at the De La Warr Pavilion, for some reason, I thought you had performed there. But obviously, I got that totally wrong...I thought there was some connection with you having done some sort of thing with the band, or the RAF...

ROBERT: No...I' ve been...when I was in the RAF I used to perform in other theatres with the band, but not that one...like the Nottingham Theatre Royal, places like that we used to go sometimes, or...but not there at all. I was stationed in Lincolnshire, the wrong end of the country. They used to have military bands there a lot, they used to have bands playing, they used to have the air force the Royal Air Force central band...

ROBIN: At De La Warr?

ROBERT: Yes, those kinds of things. I always remember, I saw the most wonderful...one of the first classical...when I became aware of classical artists...like, when I was really interested in playing the piano as a teenager, and I remember I saw a famous pianist called Ben O Mesaovich...he was a very old person as well...he must have been in his 80's...he gave a Chopin recital at the De La Warr Pavillion, and they used to have the grand piano in the centre of the stage.

ROBIN: And when would this have been?

ROBERT: This was in the 60's...when I was probably 18 or something...and um, and I remember, he came on from the edge of the stage, and he walked very, very, very slowly, to the piano, this very old man, and then he sat, and he played this piano, and you know...incredible, the contrast between how he'd come on, really slowly as an elderly man, and made this piano come alive...this beautiful sound. Yes...Ben O Mesaovich...

ROBIN: That's a kind of Jewish sounding name...

ROBERT: He was very famous...he was a very famous concert pianist. And er...I' m just trying to think of other things. Other things...

ROBIN: Any other notes?

ROBERT: No. Not really.

ROBIN: Did...Because when I went to see...when I went to the De La Warr the last time to have a look round, you got the entrance to it on the main road, and then the bit that would go out onto the sea front.

ROBERT: That's right...

ROBIN: &In the summer I was assuming that things in the Pavilion...the De La Warr... would maybe spill out onto the beach...or...some sort of connection between...

ROBERT: No, no, not...apart from the outside where they used to have dancing, or you know, outside...the terrace...outside...no, the theatre, you had these huge curtains, and in the summer when they had the interval, they used to open the doors to ventilate it, but when...they would close them for the rest of the...oh no it was very...no, no, not really, not spilling out, that's very modern...'spilling out'...'spilling out?! Bexhill on Sea? There's now...next door to the De La Warr Pavilion, there is now a little golf...a crazy golf course or something...and when I was a child, there was a huge...derelict building...I don't know if it was a bomb...if it had been bombed in the second world war, or if it had just fallen into disrepair...and it was the remnants of what was called the Metropole Hotel...it was a huge Victorian place. But that was pulled down and all levelled and now it's just a little golf course. But I can remember that being there. And er...yes. I remember watching standing in the domes...outside the De La Warr there's sort of domes that look out onto the sea front... you'll see what I mean if you look out...they were quite a way from the Pavilion, you walk across the terrace, and then some grass, and you come to this...these little sort of um...little circular verandas covered by a dome. And I remember watching an airshow...they used to have an airshow along the south coast with all these different planes flying along really low...really low, and it was really exciting, and standing in this dome seeing them all go along from Eastbourne to Hastings...y'know, like...yes...

ROBIN: I remember when I...I stood in those domes when I went down to visit, and I remember I was with someone, we were talking, and the acoustics, would do...if you...do you remember?

ROBERT: Oh yes, that's right, yes...I've got a photograph of myself in one of those domes.

ROBIN: Have you got it here?

ROBERT: I think so yes.

ROBIN: Yeah, that would be nice...

ROBERT: You know...I'm wearing a silly hat I think...I think, or something. I don' t know if I've still got it, I'll have a look later...and er...yes. I'm just trying to think of anything else, I can't think of anything else. I'm exhausted...it used to have a very nice smell...I remember...the De La Warr Pavilion. A sort of exciting smell. Sort of perfume and the faintest suggestion of tobacco...and maybe alcohol...'you know, it's a sort of ambience. It was exciting...you know all those forbidden things, you know, tobacco, and perfume...you know, just generally...

ROBIN: Women, wine and song.

ROBERT: That's right, adult, you know...an adult atmosphere, yes...it was quite glamorous I used to think...the atmosphere there. And the costume, the way people were dressed...you were saying weren't you? Yes, I believe what happened there, when they had stiletto heels...you know, when stiletto heels became popular...you know, those very high...I think they used to...was it there that they...people complaining about the damage they were doing? You know, sort of um...

ROBIN: The shoes to the floor?

ROBERT: Mm, yes, I think so...or probably in the dance area or something like that. Maybe it wasn't there, I don't know. But I mean...you could...stick it in couldn't you? Sounds, yeah...

ROBIN: You never know...

ROBERT: And at the end of the theatre...on the theatre night, they used to have the taxis roll up to pick people up...you know...I used to think that that was quite exciting as well...these big taxis come up and pick people up. Yeah. What else can I say?

ROBIN: Well it's fascinating anyway, all of this...

ROBERT: Oh, and I remember one...I can remember the summer show, going back to instruments again. I had never seen a sousaphone. You know what a sousaphone is like?

ROBIN: Is it...it's like a tuba isn't it?

ROBERT: That's right, it's like a tuba, but it was invented by Sousa, the American composer of marches...and it was made to fit...I suppose it was made for appearances, its basically a tuba in a different form, and instead of the bell coming up in front, the person sort of puts it on and the bell is round the back, and the valves are there...and I'd never seen one of these things, and I think it was in a comedy routine...and they make a sort of deep bass like sound. And I thought this things was incredible, this sousaphone... again it was a sort of instrument, I thought, gosh, this is so exciting. What is that? And I have a...a little...we used to...when I was a child when I was young, we used to have 'I Spy' books. Have you ever heard of 'I Spy' Books? And there was 'I Spy' Cars, 'I Spy' Ships, 'I Spy' Aeroplanes... and 'I Spy' musical instruments.

ROBERT: And a lot of my entries are from the De La Warr Pavilion...I've got that upstairs. I can show you that, I've got it...filled in by me in the 50's. Um. Right.Of course now, I don't know what it will be like, but it used to be a beautiful building inside, and over years it became less beautiful...because of the way that things deteriorated from the way...this is an example: they used to have a beautiful bar there. It was upstairs in the East Wing...it was a long, long bar, with sort of pine strips of wood down, you know, holding the counter up, and mirrors all behind, and it was very attractive, and a very nice...and somebody in their wisdom, or lack of it, decided to...this thing had got to be completely ripped out. And one year I went down there, I looked into where I thought the bar was, and I thought...good heavens! Where's the bar? It's become a cloakroom. It's become a cloakroom. That low, green counter, dark green counter, with dark green sort of surrounds and everything...it's a cloakroom. That's where you hand your coat in. I'd only discovered that it was still the bar, but this was the design...it was drab, awful, a complete and utter turn off, as far as design went, and I thought, why did they destroy that beautiful bar there and put that monstrosity in its place?

And of course, then you had...nobody bothered to go, it really hit hard times in the 90's, and you' go up there, and they'd hardly be anybody in the whole place...one or two people with half a pint of beer...at half past nine in the evening, and you know: 'can I have a?...oh, we're closing soon.' I said, 'what are you t...?' 'Oh yes, we close at 10 if there's no customers, and you know', they were so kind of mealy mouthed, and I thought, what a dump...this has turned into a real dump. And I remember, some of the people they had working there...I remember I was being served, by this youth, who looked, you know, least suited to be in a bar, and I ordered a drink, and he...with one hand he was eating something, with one hand, and chewing...with the other hand, like this, and I said: 'Do you usually speak to customers when you're eating food?' And he went...(chewing with exaggerated head nodding). The cheeky little so and so, and I thought, yes...that was a sort of...and I went in there one night, and there was this youth...with a baseball hat lying back in one of the things on his mobile, you know, like this (reclining, feet up) in one of the seats, and I thought well this is the De La Warr Pavillion! This has changed beyond all recognition. From the days I...from the glamour days of the 50's when it was so exciting...to a kind of just a...you know...just a sad old ghost of its past of the sort if people in there.

ROBIN: I think it's under new management now.

ROBERT: Well I hope so. Mm. Yes. I remember I saw...the um &now what's the name of the Oscar Wilde play? With the um...with the um...it was called...the play...it was a musical based on an Oscar Wilde play, and the musical was called 'Found in a Handbag' I think. Now what's the Oscar Wilde play in which er ...'To lose one parent is regrettable, to lose two parents is downright carelessness.' Where does that...which? 'The Importance of Being Earnest!' That's right, yes...and this play...I think it called 'Found...' this musical, 'Found in a Handbag' was staged at the De La Warr Pavilion. In the 60's that would be...

ROBIN: And was that the Penguin Players?

ROBERT: No, no, I don't think...they were...that was coming to the time when they used to have a lot of people coming in to do things...you know, that's when...the sort of beginning of the demise of resident companies, and then it started to have all the things they had started to be visitations...you know, for two or three nights and then it would be somebody else.

ROBIN: So why was there that demise? What was the...

ROBERT: Well, why did repertory theatre...which is what they called that sort of thing...why did that die out? People used to say because of television. Because people, you know, in the 50's...television was not as widespread, anywhere near as it is now, and that was a big thing to go out to the theatre to see live theatre, to go out to the cinema...I mean, Bexhill used to have quite a few cinema's once, you know...yeah, it had about...well it was quite a few, it had three in operation when I was there...and then...in the 1930's apparently, they must have had quite a few because some of them were bombed, and you know I...then they, one closed...um...and then they had the Ritz and the Playhouse, and then the Ritz closed and the Playhouse...gradually, it was really there was a parallel between the way cinemas sort of seemed to disappear, and the popularity of live theatre...television, maybe. Everybody started to have a television...and you know, so Saturday night theatre on the television would keep people in away from going out...you know...probably that was it, but, the residencies, the idea of residencies disappeared, and all the acts and all the shows, they were kind of visiting, you know a visiting, for week or a fortnight, and then it would be somebody else visiting. Not a resident company like you'd had in the past. I remember seeing Vic Oliver...have you ever heard of Vic Oliver?

ROBIN: No.

ROBERT: He was a very popular...he was a very popular comedian, and I think he was married to Winston Churchill's daughter, or...when I recently saw a portrayal of Churchill's life on television...I don't know if you remember that, it was about his life in the second world war, and I think his daughter was seeing...um...this man...Vic Oliver...I remember him appearing at the De La Warr Pavilion...he was...and Churchill referred to him in extremely scathing terms...but you know...I remember him being at the De La Warr Pavilion...Vic Oliver...

ROBIN: So when he was there, would he have been known as the one who was married to...

ROBERT: Probably, cos that would have been in the 1950's...I don't know if he was married...I don't know if there was a...yes maybe they were...I'm just trying to think of anybody else that I remember there...oh um...no that was...I'm thinking of someone completely different. I nearly gave you an experience I remember from Nottingham...its comple...

ROBIN: Thinking it was...

ROBERT: Yes, yes. Because I went to see...mmm...a famous jazz player, and it wasn't there, it was...in Nottingham that I went to see...anyway...um...they used to...they started to have a refreshment bar in front of the theatre downstairs...rather than having it upstairs where people always used to go up to the bar to have drinks in the interval, they bought another bar, a smaller one downstairs, and put it just in the...so that people didn't have to go up there I think. Really...sort of scratching the bottom of the bin now aren't I, for information? You know...

ROBIN: That's where some of the most interesting stuff could emerge from...you know, it doesn't all have to be...

ROBERT: No, I suppose not...

ROBIN: You know, even kind of minutia...what were the toilets like?

ROBERT: Oh, strangely, I was thinking about the toilets...I was thinking about them just then. Um, they've changed quite a bit, you know, I can remember the original...but just the...kind of furniture in there...the sinks and all the rest of it...yeah, the um...I think...I seem to remember they used to have photographs of the players in the um...in the foyer, you know. You know the old kind of glamour photography...leaning out...you know the kind of thing?

ROBIN: Yeah, yeah...

ROBERT: Leaning toward the camera like this, you know...they used to have those, and it was very, very 1950's that sort of thing wasn't it? 40's I suppose or 50's...and um...yeah, and they used to have the box office...of course, it made me laugh I really had to...I went to see...a few years ago...not long ago...its probably about five years ago now...they had a game, they had...it was a visiting show...um...you know Flanagan and Allen, have you ever heard of Flanagan and Allen?

ROBIN: Underneath the Arches...

ROBERT: That's right. Well they had a company there...er &kind of like um...what do they call them...a look-alike...or a ...re...

ROBIN: Um...well you've got the 'Bootleg Beatles...'

ROBERT: That's the sort of thing...these two, there were two men...

ROBIN: Being Flanagan and Allen...

ROBERT: That's right yes, and I went to get a ticket, and the woman looked under the box office there and she said, 'do you want concessions?' And I thought my goodness me, I've really turned the full circle from being a little child coming in here with my parents to being someone who's old enough to 'need concessions...dear?' Sort of thing...I said I said, 'no thank you', I didn't even need them either because I wasn't even 60...but I must have looked it I suppose. I went there. And I went to that show, and I sat in the...you know...and they wanted audience participation...and I was thinking, I hope you don't come to me, you know...because I...

ROBIN: So when was this?

ROBERT: In about 2000 I would think, not that long ago, you know...

ROBIN: And it was like a Flanagan and Allen...

ROBERT: Yes, and it was so different from the things...it was alright...but you know, like, for instance, in the pit...the orchestra pit, that was quite exciting, you know, they used to have players...a proper band and group in there for the show, but this, they just had an organ and a drummer, and it seemed...like it was such a shoestring...

ROBIN: And was it a real organ?

ROBERT: An organ that you I suppose...it was an electronic organ...and I thought...two people...that's the band. You know its sort of...I remember when they used to have two pianists...you know two pianists, very, very talented pianists as well...playing for the summer show...and they used to come on and play the piano before the show started...you know, two hands at the piano...really good, and I remember also, one thing I used to love to hear and that was the muted trumpe...they used to have a trumpeter in the pit orchestra....and I used to love to hear the mute playing in the trumpet, I used to find it really fascinating this sound of the muted trumpet...it's always fascinated me that you know...when I was young, I bought a Peggy Lee record simply to hear...not to hear Peggy Lee, singing the song Mister Wonderful but to hear the sound of muted brass that came in...in between the chords, just to hear these trumpets...and that's why I bought the record...to hear that sound...it's strange you know. Peggy Lee, 'Mr Wonderful'...you know that song? Have you ever heard that song? (singing) 'Why this feeling? Why this glow? Why this thrill when you say hello? It's a strange and wondrous magic, you do. Mr Wonderful...that's you...' And they'd...you'd have the brass coming in...and that's all I bought this record for...to hear the interspersions of brass...muted brass...and I remember this trumpet...and I used to think, oh yes, there's the mute, and he's going to play the mute, and it used to sound so good...so...

ROBIN: People buy records for very different reasons...they don't even buy records...

ROBERT: And big records...78's...you know? Big thing about that big...with a hole in the middle. Used to be 78 revs...you know...and um...mmm...yeah, they used to have proper...you know. They used to have amateur dramatics there as well...they used to have amateur dramatics...I think it was...once a year...there was a drama...a school...it was called 'The Thalia School of Speech and Drama'...and all the...anybody who was a member of this they would get practice for their one production at the De La Warr Pavillion, and I think the lady in charge of it was called Christine Porch...and after they'd done their production, she always used to come on...and say a few words...you know...about the um...production.

ROBIN: And do you remember what that was like?

ROBERT: No, I don't really...I don't know whether I actually...I must have been to see it...otherwise I wouldn't have known what would have happened...I must have been to see it...I didn't go that often...I think I knew somebody who was involved in it...and who was actually...somebody I worked with...yeah...think it was...was it um? Yeah. Maureen McLaughlin I think she was involved in it, and she...and I worked in the same office, and I went to see...that's how I remember that...that's what they used do anyway....The Thalia School of Speech and Drama which used to be in London Road, in these houses, and the last time I went, the whole lot was bulldozed and its all completely new flats...I thought, where did The Thalia School of Speech and Drama go? Long ago! Look at the other side of the road, it's the same thing, its unrecognisable...I don't even recognise, its London Road, Bexhill. No houses that I could remember up there at all. Yeah. You see my memories of the De La Warr Pavilion are in some ways inseparable from my memories of Bexhill at the time. I mean the surroundings of the De La Warr, like the trolley buses that they used to pass...you know, they were electric...you know, a trolley bus runs...although it's a road vehicle which you can steer, its not on lines...but they run from overhead electric cables. A cross between a tram and a bus really. That's right, and they were very, very quiet...and I can remember those, the Hastings tramways...and they used to be really comfortable...and they were just like, there was no engine, you just got on them...and they were so quiet, so pollution free...and they used to turn round...that's right, they use to pass the De La Warr...either way...and I think sometimes they used to turn round at what is now a roundabout, and sometimes they used to go on to Cooden...Cooden Beach.

ROBIN: And that's where the posh people lived...

ROBERT: (affects posh voice) 'Oh yes, Cooden Drive...if one lived in Cooden Drive, one had really aspired...' Cooden Beach...the Golf Club, and Cooden Beach Hotel of course. And London trains stopped at Cooden Beach because one would need to pick up those business men who worked in the city...yes, and um...very...Cooden, they didn't have that sort of thing...Sidley was you know...an old village that was tacked onto the edge of Bexhill. Up Sidley. 'Lives up Sidley' they used to say...Cooden Drive...Wycombe Avenue ,leading into Cooden Drive. Colonels and people like that...retired Colonels...and 'Lady' something, you know the sort of thing...

ROBIN: They didn't have minstrel shows or anything like that did they?

ROBERT: What, the black and white minstrels?

ROBIN: Yeah ...

ROBERT: They might have had...that's the type of thing that might have visited...they used to have visiting...they had most of visiting thing even in those days, yeah, they might have done, they might have had the black and white minstrel show...I can imagine that's the type of thing that they would have had...yeah...and you know, various...you know, yeah. I told you about the handrail didn't I? The handrail down the spiral staircase? When I was young, I can remember the only handrail was the original one from 1935, but because it was deemed to be dangerous, because the steps narrow, because its spiral the wide part of the step gradually get narrow towards the handrail and it was deemed to be dangerous, so they fitted an extra handrail out so people didn't walk on these really narrow steps...and that handrail is still there.